I would never have signed a 10 year ADSO for army aviation. You must understand, the Army has an ace in the hole when filling the Warrant Officer aviation pipeline. Exit surveys are important, but those only capture the opinion of those whom the Army has already lost. Note: The waiver authority for this requirement is the Commanding General, U.S. Army Aviation Center, Fort Rucker, AL 36362-5000. . The BRADSO and PADSO portions of CSP remain in effect. I'm good at doing Army things and I enjoy them too, but I don't know if I can commit so much of my life before I've even had my first real taste of being an officer. Deployments are great flying, but terrible on a family. I assume if you're not in flight school by that date, your commitment is just as long as the Air Force if not a little bit longer. This means that aviation formations get screwed doubly they have to support everyone's demands, while being vastly outnumbered. Warrant Officers | goarmy.com Thats at least 2 moves and several TDYs in the space of about 2 years. Another disparity is the pay inequality between the militarys pilots. Glad I retired when I did. Just like privates do certain tasks, junior warrant officers perform certain work as well, and I've personally seen a few folks not being able to deal with that change. My family got to live in England for three years and it was fantastic! Signal: The IT department of the Army. If anything it hurts recruiting new pilots. Increased ADSO Effect on Recruiting and Retention Very true. I don't know if there are enough Officers getting out that would be willing to revert to WO to solve the pilot shortage, but maybe it would help. The future of Army aviation depends on retaining the pilots in whom it invests so much. It was not a wild decision to take a small hit to accession to make sure you have mid careerists. If the Army rescinds this ADSO and reverts to the original six-year obligation, it will have six years to develop solutions to increase retention. Moving to a random Air Force Base for less than 1 year while Awaiting Pilot Training (APT), Moving to a base for 6-10 months for initial aircraft qualification. Initial assignments should be in table of organiza-tion and equipment (TOE) rather than table of distribution and allowances (TDA) units. That's my issue (age waiver). This! Traditionally, the Army has not struggled to recruit pilots. But then again, it's 4 more years of employment or should I say deployments. Discretionary pay intended to be used as needed to address retention problems. If you love the flying youre doing, and you have a squadron of good people, any assignment can be a great experience, no matter how busy you are. Like it or not, you need to accrue that experience one way or another, First, as we just mentioned, you only have to worry about one job flying one aircraft for Uncle Sam. You'll be a WO for three-ish years. Army directive, AD 2021-31, approved Sept. 10, 2021, and effective Oct. 1, 2021, will reset the time required for aviator warrant officers (military occupational specialty 152 through 155) to. Officer Active Duty Service Obligation (ADSO) Guide Up to $15K per year payable to officers drawing Optometrist Regular Special Pay who have completed initial ADSO for education and training, and who execute a 12-month active duty service agreement. PDF Selection of Army Aviation Officers and Warrant Officers im hopeful the army can fix this problem ASAP. A Talk With The US Armys Underground Warfare Expert. Once Stan finally gets qualified in his aircraft, hed get seasoning orders with his Guard or Reserve unit. Army is trying to get payback for their costs, but that will be increasingly hard to do if airlines are hiring. The 10 year ADSO was based on whether or not you pinned WO1/2LT by a certain date, not by when you started or graduated IERW. A chief warrant officer 3 with eight years of service earns $5093.70 per month, whereas a captain with eight years of service earns $6435.00 per month, a difference of $1,341.30 in favor of non-Army pilots. I wouldnt put it past B Co to drop incorrect information and later say we didnt say that.. It only increases your overall training costs because typically you have less time available to retain these people. If retention suffers too much, the Army will face a pilot production shortfall that will add to the existing shortage. This may be because the Army has not undertaken the same in-depth approach to understanding this problem as other services. That's what the Army was counting on. It explains how to perform well in your training, I dont hold back when people ask me the best way to become a. is to get hired directly by a Guard or Reserve unit and let them send you to UPT. I would also say if the Army wants to recruit more street to seat, I would require those people to attend Basic Training at FT Benning and intensify the military training for non-prior service WOCs. Ironically, the reason why Congress established a limit on entry into flight training is because the Army in the late 60's and early 70's started to funnel relatively large numbers of maneuver General Officers through flight school. Army Career Satisfaction Program That's the Army's ace in the hole. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. New Army directive will reset aviator warrant officer date of rank If the civilians don't want to join, not a problem. Were you part of the 6 year or 10 year ADSO group? He is the author of thejumo brief, a free weekly newsletter for Army leaders. Yes, most of us eventually plan to move on to the airlines. However, after spending a few more minutes thinking about how these career paths might compare, I decided Stans idea might not be as advantageous after all. I feel that part of the problem is that the Army assessed too many senior NCOs into flight school, which helped get them into this box that they are in. You make an excellent point..I'm a twice retired CW4 (did a voluntary retiree recall three years after my first twenty). Yes, that is 11 combat stripes. army aviation 10 year adso - tecis.in I dont think I wouldve taken the 10 Year ADSO, considering that Id just now be ALMOST complete with 10 yrs aviation service. What a joke. However, on the surface, we see that Stans plan is likely to get a pilot to the airlines a couple of years before his peers. There will always be external factors and organizations that draw quality talent from the Army, but the Army should have more flexibility in their ability and measures to retain quality talent. Fiscal Yr 2021 starts Oct 1, 2020. Army, Coast Guard . Im in shape, arguably intelligent, and have at least ten good years of service left in me yet an age waiver will not be considered for aviation for either OCS or WOCS. Once he identified some units in which hes interested in, hed need to start. This is doubly applicable for aviation formations. They used their experience to mentor and groom all the other warrants around them including myself. While a longer ADSO may help from looking solely at the numbers, it won't be effective at retaining quality talent. The pay and benefits arent bad, and patriotism also factors in for most of us. For more information, please see our Due to the flight school ADSO and timeline, you will be on active duty for about 7 years in order to fulfill the obligations incurred through flight training. The DoD report to Congress included a description of Air Force efforts to assess the problem: The Air Force gathered data on what drives separations from an October 2015 Fighter Pilot Retention Air Force Smart Operations for the 21st century event, the 2015 Air Force Exit and Retention surveys, the August 2017 Dedicated Aircrew Retention Teaming Summit, and a series of three aircrew retention crowdsourcing surveys sent to 9,000 aircrew members that culminated in March 2018. By collecting data and then improving quality of life and quality of service with targeted retention initiatives, the Army will not just increase retentionthe positive changes will increase the appeal of serving as a pilot in the Army, and recruiting will increase as well. Aviation: dude it's a 10 year ADSO, so I hope you like aviation, cuz you ain't going anywhere else. It must continue to remove burdens that plague the warrant officer community, such as non-pilot-related duties and frequent deployments to combat training centers. Press J to jump to the feed. 10 U.S. Code 2114: Graduates of the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences incur an ADSO of at least 7 years. Army Career Satisfaction Program Service commitments are different for Warrant Officers in the Army Reserve and the Army National Guard. On the reset year, units focused on team building, socializing, individual skills, and professional development. Why would you stay in the Army where you barely get to be a normal human, where you could make twice the pay, work half the amount, and actually get to live a somewhat normal life? I bet less than 400 WOFT selected are non prior service on a annual basis. All in all, this track has the potential for less family stability than his Active Duty pilot counterparts. If hed gone to UPT right after college, its more likely that hed get a lot of his deploying done before his kids were that old, or even before they were all born. I like the idea of the Ultimate career path because it still allows you to earn a 20-year military retirement.. You incura 6-year ADSO for completing WOBC and also for completing Initial flight training. 10 year ADSO is official 78 212 212 comments Best Add a Comment awestm11 3 yr. ago "Army Aviators don't want to stay in the Army even though we pay them less, deploy them more, and treat them worse than their peers in other branches and civilian careers, so we will just force them to stay in longer. Back then the Army had a hard-on for pilots. Well, when you have a system that initially punishes critical thinking, then requires it later on down the line, you're creating your own problem that ends up causing its own problems. (Well assume a move to the Guard or Reserve after completing your initial 10-year UPT ADSC. This ADSO will likely cause a sharp decline in recruiting among cadets selecting their branches and enlisted soldiers and civilians interested in becoming Army pilots. While I completely understand the desire of people to fly, there is more to it than that. There's an easy answer to this the oblivious, tone-deaf culture of "readiness" that GEN Milley fostered while serving as the CSA. No. Additionally, because of rules that the Federal Aviation Administration has put into place over the last decade that make hiring civilian pilots difficult, many regional airlines have created rotary-wing transition programs that substantially ease the transition for Army helicopter pilots. Instead of giving bonuses of several hundred thousand dollars to keep pilots like our Air Force brethren get, the Army decides the best course of action is to just make it mandatory 10 years like them but not receive the pay. Additional Duty Safety Officer Course brings added - United States Army Gen. McCurry also said, People still want to fly. This can exceed a 6 year obligation. Their workload is increased several fold versus the units that they are supporting. One of the reasons for the increased ADSO was related to demand from the private sector for pilots. It's a great time to apply to become a pilot, and [Soldiers] can get in with a high school degree. Often times these decisions being made do more harm than good, and cause a tremendous amount of work (just look at our administrative packet processes). Army Publishing Directorate - Details Page If you want to fly the U-2, you must start on Active Duty. I don't know how common my situation is, but I'm sure there are plenty of people like me who barely flew, while there are others flying until they drop. . Though I agree that there is a retention problem, especially within aviation, I'm not sure the Army is focused on the right issue here. "Army Aviators don't want to stay in the Army even though we pay them less, deploy them more, and treat them worse than their peers in other branches and civilian careers, so we will just force them to stay in longer. New Army aviators will incur 10-year service obligations - Army Times This is both expensive and time-consumingtough to fit in around a 9-5 as an engineer, especially if he has a family. Graduate School Program: Only 20% of the Aviation Branch allocation for ROTC and West Point can receive the Graduate School Option. Its shocking that the Army doesnt have any institutional memory about what causes pilot shortage, which are primarily two broad topics: quality of life in the Army, and economic opportunities outside the Army. The 10-year service obligation is the result of a numbers-related calculus related to Army manning and will not address the problems that make Aviators leave. This used to be unheard of. I don't want to mess with my retirement, but would love a chance to fly for my country. My family got to live in England for three years and it was fantastic! The 10 year ADSO was based on whether or not you pinned WO1/2LT by a certain date, not by when you started or graduated IERW. The Army has more career Enlisted willing to cross over for the opportunity in being an Officer and increasein pay for the family, with or without a degree. ADSO is completed. Its a lot to ask. Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. . C-17 formation from the ramp: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6100141/c-17-air-drop. I'm thinking Army will start pushing dates to the right as much as possible to achieve its newfound maximum retention. My ORB says a date 6 years from my AD start date, which Im pretty sure is wrong. It involves no effort to understand the underlying factors that cause Army pilots to depart and is nothing more than a surface-level solution to a fundamental problem. I greatly appreciate the responsiveness of this community and the depth of feedback y'all have provided, but I want to be sure that the consensus expressed herein is not just the culmination of a bunch of bad experiences but is actually a systemic issue. Starting in October, all personnel selected to attend the Armys initial entry aviation training will incur an ADSO of ten years upon graduation from flight traininga dramatic increase from the previous six-year commitment. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. If I am a scholarship Cadet, I understand that upon completion of my initial 4 year ROTC ADSO, I . Whatever path you end up taking, please consider taking a UPT slot when offered. These cadets may not be willing to forgo an extra four years of civilian work experience to serve as aviation officers. There are a lot more BCTs, SF groups, SFABs and NG/USAR units than there are CABs. NG will have 10 years. . Below are the commissioning ADSOs by source of commission: ROTC Non-Scholars have a 3-year commissioning ADSO. In the last decade, retention has always been a hot-button issue. 10 years after flight school graduation. Why or why not? We are very, very interested in seeing more applications, he added. Yes, they will retain aviators when the quality of life increases for aviation, not just grinding us into the ground until a new command comes along every 12-18 months and does it all over again. Check this post out on Reddit:https://www.reddit.com/r/Armyaviation/comments/gxcx3o/10_year_adso_is_official/. , I knew to ask lots of questions and take the time to dig down to the primary factors motivating this line of thinking. NO WOFT POSTS. Did ROTC, then Aviation, allegedly 6 years upon completion of flight training. Cookie Notice Final thoughts the social aspect of the Army has never been worse. If you want to. The institution of the new ADSO stands in testimony to a DOD organization entrenched in process and procedure at the expense of adjustment to any current reality. Looks like 11-11.5 year total commitment. Your flight school ADSO is based on when you graduate WOBC and pin on your flight wings. We want as many applications as we can, so if anybody has any questions, be sure to contact that warrant officer recruiting team, Kearns said. Yeah a lot of questions for those of us that came into this planning on a 6 year deal. and our Then it gets worse: Over the past 19 years, an Active Duty pilot has also been likely to spend half or more of those operational assignments deployed. Gen. Michael McCurry, the director of Army aviation for the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff G-3/5/7,who said in September, One question I often get asked is, are the airlines impacting your shortfall? The security accrediation level of this site is Unclassified FOUO and below. Ideally, hed also earn his Instrument Rating, and build as much experience as possible. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, https://thefrontlines.com/comics/army-pilots-beware/. Do most of your fellow aviators love it? There are many complexities in these advanced helicopters, which translates to increased costs in flight hours, maintenance, and training requirements, Kearns said. If ATPs are granted, I'll be the first one to sign up as a warrant officer. There is no down time, no time to build family and relationships and the team. When discussing any big-picture career options, I always make sure to follow Simon Sineks advice and Start With Why. reenlistment document. Sometimes that's necessary, but there's got to be some balance. Stan was worried about his Active Duty career path (Option #2) because it would ensure several years of moves and deployments. The U.S. Army Aviation Center Survival Escape Resistance and Evasion (SERE-C) course. Its important to note that Stans theoretical plan might have allowed him to obtain the 750 hours needed for an R-ATP about 7 years after graduating from college, but thats not competitive for getting hired at a major airline. While its not impossible, and, BogiDope can absolutely help you get there. The consensus seems to be that if you graduate flight school inFY 2021, you accrue the 10 year ADSO. If you havent already read Part, Part 1: Air Force Reserve Officers Training Corps (AFROTC) Table of Contents What is AFROTC? After all, it is the warrant officer exodus to the airlines that has driven the Armys pilot retention focus. The Army may producean averageof 1200 Warrant Officers pilots annuallyincluding the Guard and Reserves. Think about approving some ETPs. The extended ADSO is intended to increase Army pilots retention in the future. I retired in 1998. A Leaders Guide to Conducting Research Staff Rides, Report to Congressional Armed Services Committees on Initiatives for Mitigating Military Pilot Shortfalls, Government Accountability Office reported, Creating a Sea Change: TF 76/3, Adaptation, Experimentation, and the Joint Force, Podcast: The Spear The Strategic Lieutenant, Book Talk: Urban Warfare in the Twenty-First Century, Frank Sobchak Joins MWI as Chair of Irregular Warfare Studies, Announcing the Modern War Institutes 202223 Senior and Research Fellows, Call for Submissions: Civil-Military Relations and Modern War, Call for Applications: MWIs 202223 Fellows Program. PDF Training Officer Active Duty Service Obligations - United States Army It turns out that even one year is a big difference. The Army only draws between 300-400 non prior WOFT applcants yearly. Nope. There are some other prerequisites they have to meet. It will harm recruiting and we will continue to bleed talent into the civilian aviation market. Stan figured that even spending 5 years in a non-flying job, this track would make him a military pilot well below the USAFs current age limit (33 years old), and would actually get him to the airlines sooner than his Active Duty pilot peers. The Armys blind spot with retention data is further highlighted by comments made by Brig. As a result, the US Army Aviation Center of Excellence initiated a survey to better inform future incentive and quality of life programs designed to increase retention.. But at what cost? While the ADSO goes into effect in October, its effect on retention wont be felt for at least six years after the first ten-year ADSO class graduateslikely not until late 2027. Age should be liftedI'm in my mid fifties and still fly helicopters (civilian market) for a living. That means, we need you! West Point graduates have a 5 year commissioning ADSO. Stans family has still moved several timesboth as an engineer and as a pilot. While the goal of the CSA's program was a well intentioned effort to make up for a dearth of aviation experience at senior ranks, it wasn't well received and Congress bit back. I remember when they tried to get aviators out of the "sack" flight suit and into Nomex BDUs to make them more soldierly. Sounds great! One year dedicated to reset, one to training, one to deployment. Well also see some advantages of Active Duty and some options for cutting your time there short. If you receive the Grad School option, the option costs you nothing because GrADSO runs concurrent with your flight school ADSO. So why are aviators getting out? Graduate School Program: Only 20% of the Aviation Branch allocation for ROTC and West Point can receive the Graduate School Option. Anyhow, a 10 year ADSO is an ungodly amount for a branch without a proper Aviation culture. Excerpt from your enlistment contract which every one of has (or will, if selected) signed. Fly them that way through the instrument phase, and then conduct a rotary wing transition. Having looked at these options, lets go back to our original thought: If you missed your shot at the Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path are you screwed? However, many of my buddies werent sure yet if they were willing to commit to a decade of service in exchange for a pilot slot. There is no replacement theory for ARFORGEN they decided to just shelve it and go with "let's make everyone miserable all the time". Regarding the future Army Commissioned Lts in wishing to branch aviation, that will be an issue next year. The ARMY should allow ATP for all prior service men willing and fit to fly. New ADSO order goes into effect 03JUN saying: "Hey, buddy, you wanna fly? Serving on Active Duty is also the only way to get an overseas flying assignment. Im not young, but Ive aged well and am not ready to resign myself to a desk. NO WOFT POSTS. I still don't understand how this ADSO extension is going to fix any of those issues, though it may act as a "gotcha" to get people "over the hill" in their Army career where they wouldn't feel like a transition at 10-12 years of service would be a good decision. Just sign away your life until you're 34!". More career Enlisted apply than street to seat on a yearly basis. Even if the increase in commitment lowers the civilian WOFT applicantnumbers, the in house career Enlisted pool will fill the void. An ADSO twice as long as other branches (for academy grads) or 6+ years longer than ROTC counterparts is only going to deter quality officers that view an additional obligation as a loss of opportunity for careers beyond the service. The First 10 Year ADSO Class : Armyaviation - reddit In my first year and a half after flight school I flew over 500 hours. New aviators to incur 10-year service obligation - United States Army Especially since TN he Chinooks are B Co 2-104 from CTARNG and I was the CDR and PC sitting in the left of the Chinook in the foreground on the left. I think that mindser still exists. Army Career Satisfaction Program I've been in the Army for a long time, and it's never been worse than now. PDF Rotc Branch for Active Duty Service Obligation (Adso) Contract New ADSO order goes into effect 03JUN saying: "Hey, buddy, you wanna fly? That's the Army's ace in the hole. The increase in the ADSO will have profound affect on USMA/ROTC cadets. (Yes, they say ADSO instead of ADSC because the Army and the Air Force refuse to do anything the same since they divorced back in 47.) Is it only for new guys coming in? Hes likely deployed at least 3 times, if not more, and has also spent many weeks TDY. Lasting solutions must come in the form of quality of life and quality of service improvements. The, exists specifically for Active Duty pilots willing to make an early commitment to continue their service in the Guard or Reserve. Were looking at troops selected for flight training in the fiscal year 2021 and beyond.. The. However, we have to look at more than just the number of years involved. arent bad, and patriotism also factors in for most of us. Full disclosure, I was a street to seat Warrant that served for 24 years. While I continue to assert this is far better than becoming an Active Duty pilot through the USAF Academy, ROTC, or OTS, I worry that Ive done people a disservice by making the Active Duty pilot career path seem too unattractive. What if Stans 5-year ADSC runs out as the next SARS/Swine Flu/COVID-type pandemic puts hiring on hold? Yes, the Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path is the best it gets you to all of your goals the fastest. 10 year ADSO - General Military Helicopter Discussions - Vertical TheGovernment Accountability Office reported, for example, that it can take two years and three to eleven million dollars to produce a mission-ready fighter pilot. His answer was, Of course not. I just signed my WOFT contract at MEPS on Thursday with the idea of a 6 year ADSO.